So I took to the mean streets of my Gmail chat list for a few opinions on this controversial and ever changing term.
me: so what qualifies as a MEME?
3:27 PM Brett: any individual unit of cultural knowledge that can be passed between people
...why do you ask
3:30 PM me: always been trying to figure it out
3:34 PM peoples answers difer
3:35 PM Brett: well some people's usage of the word implies popularity
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4:14 PM me: Well, I'd say in general in order to be a meme, you have to have some base over which you exist. A YouTube video that only your friends watch is not a meme
I mean, if you made it.
4:19 PM Brett: but, it is. That's exactly my point.
A meme is a unit of information, regardless of popularity. But many people use the term to mean "a popular fad/phenomenon"
4:22 PM me: Yeah, I've read their definition.
4:25 PM I guess one argument I'm hearing and agree with in someways is that when people talk about an internet meme, it's somewhat different than a meme alone.
Brett: I like the term 'internet phenomena'
4:26 PM but I understand the meaning whenever anyone says internet meme
4:29 PM me: I tended to initially think it meant thing that gets passed around to people that's not like "check out this site" but "here's a link directly to this thing I want you to see that avoids where it's located outside of that all together"
like XKCD wouldn't be a meme, but a few popular comics within it might be.
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4:38 PM Brett: well a comic could start a meme. but to truly be a meme, it would have to sort of inspire other works
4:51 PM me: hmmm...
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me: so what qualifies as a MEME?
3:37 PM Jeff: Tough definition. I'd limit it to phrases with brutal overuse on the internet? THough, people call that dramatic chipmunk thing a meme, so, I don't really know.
All your base are belong to us. Clearly a meme.
3:38 PM were meme means 'internet meme' in this discussion
me: yup. I think that's the most frequently referenced one, and the thing I first think of when I hear the word.
3:39 PM when you said All your base are belong to us. Clearly a meme." you meant the item, not the phrase, but the video.
Jeff: Different communities have different meme's too.
I actually mean the phrase. The video is no longer relevant
3:40 PM To my other point "Imagine a beowulf cluster of those" is clearly a slashdot meme, not a general internet meme.
3:41 PM me: So "the cake is not a lie" is a meme.
Jeff: definitely
3:42 PM well, the 'cake is a lie'
me: but it evolves
you can say both now
3:43 PM Jeff: sure. I haven't actually seen 'not a lie'. But, if it's sufficiently popular, then certainly.
me: the video is relevant to a point. I mean, primary source is WHY people say it. Ok, the ultimate question here. Would you consider all the things that became common to say in our culture due to AUstin Powers and Seinfeld to be Memes?
3:44 PM plenty of people who've never seen either use the phrases because they're just common in our society now.
Jeff: Hmm
3:45 PM Yeah, I think those may actually provide the base definition for meme.
Where internet meme is a bit of a bastardization of it.
3:56 PM me: hmmm...interesting. you and Trevor have differing opinions
3:59 PM Jeff: If I check wikipedia, the example of austin powers/seinfeld providing basic cultural phrases to those who don't know their origin seems to match perfectly.
me: ::nod::
4:01 PM Jeff: Given that it was coined in '76, it probably was defined to refer explicitly to things such as those, rather than to internet fads. (THough, many 'internet memes' do end up fitting the 'meme' definition, but not all of them seem to).
4:02 PM me: some suggest internet meme is a term that has it's own seperate, but evolved from defenition
Jeff: I'd agree
4:05 PM me: but the definition differs fairly significantly
4:08 PM if I figure out precisely how, I'll let you know.
Jeff: haha, i'm not entirely sure either.
Transmission is relatively similar, if faster. The source material 'feels' different.
4:36 PM me: the most debate seems to be if a phrase in and of itself is an internet meme or just a meme that came from the internet
4:37 PM the source of the phrase (a lol cat or a funny video) is more definitely considered a meme.
but a popular website is not a meme?
4:38 PM Jeff: I'm begining to change my position some. I think i'm falling towards there being no meaningful distinction between meme and internet meme.
4:39 PM except as much as there is between maybe 'tv meme' or 'movie meme'
A popular website isn't really a meme because conten't doesn't tend to be static, so there's no single piece of information to call a meme.
4:40 PM A website name could become a meme or something though.
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so what qualifies as a MEME?
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3:32 PM Patrick: it's an oft-repeated idea or concept
3:33 PM me: Wikied?
3:35 PM Patrick: in the internet sense, it refers to things that get repeated and modified in internet communication
like
O RLY?
or all your base
or I can has cheezburger etc
3:37 PM me: So you mean the phrase when you say all those things?
not the sites behind the prhases
3:38 PM Patrick: right
but it's more than just words
me: Jeff: Tough definition. I'd limit it to phrases with brutal overuse on the internet? THough, people call that dramatic chipmunk thing a meme, so, I don't really know.
All your base are belong to us. Clearly a meme.
All your base are belong to us. Clearly a meme.
3:39 PM Patrick: well also, most everything on YTMND.com is a meme
3:41 PM me: not just phrases, thought a lot of the definitions I'm getting here are catch phrases ....which I think is wrong, honestly.
I never thought it was phrases until I started asking.
Patrick: also, it takes on a slightly different meaning if you're a blogger
3:43 PM one of the earliest internet memes was pages of dancing animated gifs
3:44 PM me: the video is relevant to a point. I mean, primary source is WHY people say it. Ok, the ultimate question here. Would you consider all the things that became common to say in our culture due to AUstin Powers and Seinfeld to be Memes?
yeah, I saw Hamster Dance really early I guess...before all your base.
3:45 PM Patrick: see that's the thing. meme has a different definition on the internet
3:46 PM so I'd say probably not
3:47 PM or at least, most of them, probably not
and actually everything from Austin Powers is no
3:48 PM but a lot of the concepts from Seinfeld are memes in their own righti
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3:58 PM me: I think you're being biassed there
because you like seinfeld better
Patrick: not at all
3:59 PM me: then what on earth are you on about?
Patrick: outside the internet, a repeated phrase isn't a meme
me: why not?
Patrick: because an internet meme is something seperate
me: Jeff: If I check wikipedia, the example of austin powers/seinfeld providing basic cultural phrases to those who don't know their origin seems to match perfectly.
Patrick: it relies on an informal definitionl
4:00 PM me: but it has to have some sort of definition
I feel like Tom Ashbrook
4:01 PM Patrick: there are seperate wikipedia articles for meme and internet meme
they're two different things
if "oh behave!" was an internet thing, it would be a meme
4:02 PM wheras Seinfeld's examination of regifting, or to provide a better example, coupling's giggle loop, are memes in their own right
4:03 PM me: how so?
4:04 PM Memes seperate from the definition of internet meme, or memes that would fit both definitions?
Patrick: the giggle loop could have been an internet meme
4:05 PM regifting not so much
so yeah. the former
4:06 PM me: but...WHY!? What makes the one a potential internet meme, and the other not? You haven't answered the question.
first let me ask this
are you under the opinion that people using the phrase "all your base" or "the cake is a lie" qualify as internet memes?
4:07 PM Patrick: well it has to do with which is more repeatable on the internet
yes
me: then if Austin Powers was say, a short internet film that people repeated things from in a similar way, would those not also be internet memes?
4:08 PM Patrick: I pretty much said that the would, yeah
4:14 PM Patrick: wheras calling someone a "low talker" would be more of a general cultural meme
me: only because it's from TV and not from the internet?
Patrick: well I really can't imagine it being referenced on YTMND
4:16 PM me: if it had started there, why not? I mean, so say Randall Munroe started the phrase
by using it in one of his comics
Patrick: or seeing a cute cat saying, "I NO CAN HEARS YOU. YOU IS LOWTALKER"
me: right.
Then would it not be a meme?
4:17 PM do I not bleed?
Patrick: except what I said wouldn't happen
me: what?
Patrick: what I
what I'm saying is that it's a lot less meme-able in the internet sense
4:18 PM whereas "series of tubes" is fucking golden
me: but what you perceive as being memable and what people actually do might differ.
"series of tubes?"
that sounds like a pretty standard phrase that doesn't sound like gold to me.
out of reference.
I mean...out of...context
4:19 PM Patrick: if you were at home I could show you how wrong you are
me: I'm saying out of context
4:20 PM Patrick: what's your point?
4:21 PM me: the phrase "low talker" alone doesn't sound memeable, but once you put it in context, people think it's funny and worth repeating. You could say the same thing about the phrase "a series of tubes" by itself it doesn't mean anything, but once you put it in context, people think it's funny and use it out of context.
"pick my hot toe"
4:22 PM Really weird alone, but once you've seen it it's fun to repeat.
Patrick: or once you've heard someone else use it
4:23 PM but anything that's repeated in that manner could be an internet meme
I'm saying that the way "low talker" is used is different
4:24 PM me: I do agree with you that an internet meme is something somewhat different from the 1976 term Meme
4:25 PM Patrick: actually the giggle loop as it
4:26 PM as it exists in coupling is a perfect example of a non-internet meme
how once Jeff tells someone about it, they're subject to it and such
4:31 PM me: i suppose you could use the original definition of meme for that perhaps...and I suppose it's self propogating also insofar as you tell other people about the phenomenon later
4:32 PM Patrick: right
like if you burst out laughing
someone asks you later what was so funny
and you tell them
4:37 PM me: but a popular website is not a meme?
Patrick: in and of itself no
4:38 PM well actually let me check that
sites like tubgirl, goatse, and lemonparty sort of are
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me: so what qualifies as a MEME?
Trevor: hmm...
I think of it as any sort of self-propagating idea on the internet
3:26 PM me: self-propagating? Like that needs no advertisement?
Trevor: which can be a particular image, a practice (captioning cat pictures, posting "FIRST" in response to an official poster on message boards), etc
me: Goes along by word of mouth?
" "
3:27 PM Trevor: Yeah... I guess I think of it as something that doesn't go out of its way to advertise itself to others
no "email this to friends" links, etc
just something that people either link to other people, or enough people adopt the behavior that it becomes recognizable
3:29 PM Are you conducting a survey for the US census department?
3:30 PM me: nope, for me
Trevor: what have you found so far?
3:31 PM me: Brett: any individual unit of cultural knowledge that can be passed between people
3:32 PM Bakemaster: eh, I read the wikipedia article on it one time
I forget the specific description
I forget the specific description
Lucas: Well, Rebecca was aghast at herself for using the word at all last night, so she rephrased it as "thing that spreads quickly", I think.
I used to think it was any stand alone item people pass around. SOmething that's known seprate from any website it might be on.
3:33 PM a dangling modifier.
;-P
Patrick: it's an oft-repeated idea or concept
Trevor: sexy
you do seem to be getting responses using wildly-varying degrees of precision in their language
me: "your modifier is dangling"
Trevor: oh god no! Not my modifier!
3:37 PM me: Jeff: Tough definition. I'd limit it to phrases with brutal overuse on the internet? THough, people call that dramatic chipmunk thing a meme, so, I don't really know.
3:38 PM Trevor: heh
that's why "idea" is so useful in the definition! It has to be really broad, because I consider memes to encapsulate a lot of things
3:40 PM me: ::nod::
not just phrases, thought a lot of the definitions I'm getting here are catch phrases ....which I think is wrong, honestly.
3:41 PM I never thought it was phrases until I started asking
3:42 PM Trevor: phrases like what?
me: like "alll your base" and "the cake is a lie"
3:45 PM Trevor: heh
3:46 PM Yeah, I'd consider those memes, though in that case they're protrusions of a larger meme in both cases.
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3:57 PM me: Jeff seems to have an opposing view to you
Trevor: oh no!
3:59 PM me: Jeff: If I check wikipedia, the example of austin powers/seinfeld providing basic cultural phrases to those who don't know their origin seems to match perfectly.
4:02 PM Patrick: there are seperate wikipedia articles for meme and internet meme
they're two different things
if "oh behave!" was an internet thing, it would be a meme
they're two different things
if "oh behave!" was an internet thing, it would be a meme
4:12 PM me: See I think your definition sort of matches my concept better, and I'm trying not to be biased
Trevor: gotcha
(running around a bit here... there's a sloppy-joe throw-down going on!)
4:13 PM me: ....sounds sexy
Trevor: Hmm... internet meme vs regular meme though?
I've always thought of a meme as an internet-related thing...
4:14 PM It is a bit of a loosely defined concept though, and I think that people (including myself) are writing definitions to conform to their own impressions and just running with it
4:15 PM me: So have I, I'm learning it was coined in the later 70s
Trevor: interesting, interesting
4:20 PM me: Brett: well some people's usage of the word implies popularity
me: Well, I'd say in general in order to be a meme, you have to have some base over which you exist. A YouTube video that only your friends watch is not a meme
I mean, if you made it.
I mean, if you made it.
Brett: but, it is. That's exactly my point.
A meme is a unit of information, regardless of popularity. But many people use the term to mean "a popular fad/phenomenon"
A meme is a unit of information, regardless of popularity. But many people use the term to mean "a popular fad/phenomenon"
4:21 PM Trevor: sounds like his definition is diverging from mine. I guess my meme is his successful meme.
or popular meme, as it were
though admittedly many memes appear within extremely small communities...
